Searril said:This type of commenting is also not productive and makes me simply disregard anything the person has to say. If you want your opinions to be listened to it's best to start by not throwing insults at those you're trying to convince.
It was more of a gentle toss than a throw and at the end and not the start... but I only jest with you, dear Searril. I'm not here to bring down anyone's mood with villianous trolling. I can see how my words can be taken as an attack but that was not my intent so I apologize for the offense that I have caused to you and those who saw my words as mean spirited.
My tone was meant to be light and the final comment a mere joke about how simple it would be to turn a game into something too easy. It was on the extreme and I know VR would not destroy Pantheon in such a manner.
Searril, I hope that I can share a mug of Ale with you one day in Terminus and laugh about the time that we first spoke because of my a-holeish words!
Arkoll said:Searril said:This type of commenting is also not productive and makes me simply disregard anything the person has to say. If you want your opinions to be listened to it's best to start by not throwing insults at those you're trying to convince.
It was more of a gentle toss than a throw and at the end and not the start... but I only jest with you, dear Searril. I'm not here to bring down anyone's mood with villianous trolling. I can see how my words can be taken as an attack but that was not my intent so I apologize for the offense that I have caused to you and those who saw my words as mean spirited.
My tone was meant to be light and the final comment a mere joke about how simple it would be to turn a game into something too easy. It was on the extreme and I know VR would not destroy Pantheon in such a manner.
Searril, I hope that I can share a mug of Ale with you one day in Terminus and laugh about the time that we first spoke because of my a-holeish words!
No hard feelings, brother. I just let my annoyance show as I'm tired of a few people who act like people are trying to turn the game into something you can play blindfolded every time someone talks about any type of convenience feature at all.
A. For a clearer view: take a moment to step back and think of consequesnces for different options.
Let us assume:
1. No 'Global AH' (Brad has indicated so.)
2. Current 'in-game' tech = buy/sell person to person, non-AFK. (No DEV requirements)
3. Little to no 'fast travel' in 1st 3-6 months (Low levels, little exploration done yet)
B. Now ask 'who will use any implemented trading tech?'
While the internet will allow the sharing of information from exploration quickly, travel will likely be slow initially. With starting cities far apart, though, exploration will proceed exponentially, not linearly (i.e. very fast). Players will start to level up with loot drops likely outstripping progress made by crafters very quickly indeed (unless Brad has read some of my more off-the-wall posts and like the ideas). Crafters need money and resources to train skill - this takes time and, ironically, has the incidental funtion of generating more dropped items (as they kill mobs for cash/reagents etc).
This means early maket sales will mostly be loot driven, not crafter driven.
C. Now ask 'How will they use any implemented trading tech?'
(i) DELIVERY SYSTEMS
(a) If there are no 'mail' systems (No DEV costs)
People have to travel to buy/sell. They cannot travel too far initially, so there *will* be regional markets. Most goods will still be loot though. Some areas may prosper, depending on local 'special' mobs and crafting nodes etc. Others with low player-base, or no special resources may struggle.
(b) If there is a 'mail' system (some DEV cost)
(Unless it forces a BIG delay in time for delivery - talking 1-3 RL days) it will mean there will be a glut of items for sale and little cash to buy them (players need the cash for spells, consumables etc). Prices will take a nose-dive. Since most items for sale will be loot drops, players will merely go hunt them instead. They will get the item for free and gain cash and other loot + exp in the process. Since crafters need 'ores' etc for training skills, they have a cash bottleneck. Selling their items will not work unless they are significantly better than those available from drops. Selling their own loot will not work either since prices will be rock-bottom.
(ii) AFK selling
(a) Online-only (small DEV overhead)
With online-AFK selling, people tend not to use the function during their 'active' play time. This means that they will typically leave the client on overnight, or while at work (or both). Even if you bother with client time-out timers (if you want AFK users, then timing out clients seems silly), they will be able to mimic 'activity' through simple H/W or S/W. Heck, just strap the mouse to your cat! The nett result, however, is a market area full of 'vendor alts' sitting in row after row .... during off-peak time. This kills socialising completely and means that all players will become traders when they are asleep. Thus the marketplace for selling goods increases massively as it is now mainly amateurs and farmers edging out the crafters. Selling bespoke items is a niche market which is likely to be drowned out in the sheer number of 'looted trash' vendors..
(b) Off-line (small-to-medium DEV overhead)
This is probably even worse than AFK selling. It means the few people who were put off by the need to keep a window active would now also join the army of zombie traders.
(iii) Message Board:
There are a few ways these could be implemented. The effect on the economy and player use of trading depends largely on how they are implemented, bith in terms of 'scope' (the region/area they cover) and 'mode' (way they work).
Scope:
(a) local / mobile: (extra small-to-medium DEV)
This would envisage a mini-board - either a player crafted /bought one that can be moved, placed etc .. or a pre-determined fixed board. The former gives players more latitude for organic growth of markets while the pre-determined ones would allow DEVs an easier job by using 'faux' NPC traders rather than custom items. The area of effect would likely be limited to (part of) a single zone.
(b) Regional: (extra small-to-medium DEV)
These type of boards would cover a larger zone or perhaps multiple zones. It seems likely these would be pre-placed, perhaps in 'market squares' within towns/cities. These should be fairly straightforwards to implement, though they would certainly require not-inconsiderable development effort to implement and test.
(c) Global: (extra small-to-medium DEV)
These type of boards would cover a larger zone but be linked into multiple remote zones. It seems likely these would be pre-placed, perhaps in 'market squares' within towns/cities. they would all access the same 'global' market data. These should still be fairly straightforwards to implement, though they would also certainly require not-inconsiderable development effort to implement and test.
Mode:
(a) Record/access a trade channel (small-to-low-medium DEV)
This is a fairly simple model which could be implemented easily. A seperate channel is only accessible through the market board. This can be achieved as simply as having a private chat channel pre-created and hidden from view. When next to (or 'using') a Market Board, you gain access to the channel (unhidden and 'joined'). You can now see trader spam - which traders and where would depend on the scope chosen. It promotes sociability since you (as a trader/bvendor say) might get a message 'Aradune has joined the channel' if, say, you were flagged as 'TRADER'. Now I know a potential customer has clicked the message board. I can stop my crafting for a second and check to see what message they post. Perhaps they get a MOTD (1 line per unique player flagged as 'TRADER') too which they can scrolll through.
(b) Trader messages posted (PUSH) (medium DEV)
Here the object is the key. This needs some development since it needs to be smart enough to accept 'postings' from traders, but not get overfull. There would have to be 'fading' timers on messages posted (based on timestamp) to remove older messages etc. Some search facility is likely needed too (text filters etc).
(c) Trader/vendor info imported (PULL) (medium-to-high DEV)
This is a PULL-type searchg faciity. Whether attacked to the message board or the market itself, it would be an AH template in all but name. The only difference is dependent on the scope.
The combination of scope and mode would determine how close this would be to an AH. Since this is pretty much ruled out (above), it seeems unlikely that scope (c) would be used. If this is the case, a cut down version of mode (c) PULL *could* be used, but is probably more work than needed to support regional searching.
I am sure there is much I did not cover - but I hope I gave people an idea into the way I (personally) evaluate the 'value' of suggestions I read... namely 'how would that work?' 'How much work would be needed to make that a reality?'. 'Would the ends justify the effort?'.
Evoras, One day I will write a short memo! Probably.
Here's my offering, ehm, wall of text:
Trying to consider as many idea’s as possible here. It is clear that binary options are more regressive and do not consider the needs of all. A third option, I’m suggesting here, tries to combine both extremes in some form to find some common ground while catering to the idealizations of the either-or camps. Please be aware that this is only a rough consideration and might in itself be rife with problems, issues, and wrinkles.
The following idea acknowledges that hawking wares can occur anywhere in game, is the most free-form method of selling / trading, and maintains it’s own inherent limits. It is referenced by the old-school style of EQs EC tunnel method of commerce. It does not preclude a specific space for the activity, as that can be determined by the fluidity of player’s need and desires throughout the game world. It also precludes active selling / trading except where explicitly indicated. Also assumes no global AH. Trade boards can certainly be incorporated but I have left out specifics for their implimentation.
Hawking:
• Free.
• Occurs anywhere one chooses to sell / trade / buy wares.
• The amount of item space, or overhead, is the most limited. Carry capacity might be a determination. This capacity might also be determined separately from PC stats; level of PC and / or area faction might also be factors.
• Trade containers can be considered required for transactions to occur. Trade containers may not carry any item(s) that are not actively up for sale / trade. This assume that a PC places items for sale into the container through and additional sell UI function (similar to EQ AH) when actively selling / trading.
• Restrictions on the amount of containers and or available trade space is strictly limited. PCs are not going to be able to carry their entire stock of sellable items halfway across the world to a remote location to set up shop. This is designed to prevent any activity loss of active (or passive) selling / trading / buying in designated trade and commerce hubs.
• Trade containers are considered separate from typical gear containers.
Shop keeping:
• Occurs in designated trade districts, hubs, bazaars, and souqs only.
• Hawking can still occur with the same limits previously mentioned.
• In home cities, a commensurate fee can be paid to increase the selling space available. Selling containers would have a minor fee to a hard limit of amount of selling containers per PC. Next would be a cart or a stall which would have increased trade space and a steeper fee to purchase. Once purchased, they are considered owned. Activation is only allowed in designated trade areas and are licensed to the specific trade hub where they are purchased. Guilds could purchase a shop perhaps with some predetermined requisites.
• Assumes active selling / trading. Basically it’s hawking but with the possibility to increase the amount of selling / trading space available.
• The size of the potential sell / trade space can reflect the location of the transaction. Greater space available in the PC home cities’ trade district, much less space available where the PC is hawking outside of a designated home city trade hub / area. This can also be determined based on PC level, faction, etc.
• In the case of another major city, a human selling wares in the main Elven city’s trade hub must have a minimum faction level with the elves to do so. If fees, or taxes, are involved than they would be commensurate based on faction as well. This helps to maintain the predominance of trade activity to the native race. Faction increases will gradually make trading ability increasingly easier for outsiders. Max faction increase allows other races to sell their wares in the Elvish city’s trade hub at near equal ability as an elvish trader would but not equally so.
• In the case of villages and outposts where trading is allowed, similar rules apply but, again, limits on the amount of selling / trading space is limited and possibly determined by level, faction, distance from home city, etc. as appropriate.
• Trading, selling automatically end when PC leaves trading hub, logs off, or cancels selling / trading activity.
AFK selling / trading:
• Assumes the use of a broker.
• Broker halls occur only in major racial cities in the trade district.
• Requires a tax or fee per some requisite (per item, % of set price, % of sell price, etc.).
• Allows PCs to quickly put items up for sale and go adventure but at a generally higher price point than active selling / trading.
• PCs always have the option to take their hawking container and sell wherever they go. But again, strict limits on amount of overhead.
• In other racial cities, consideration of aforementioned limits may be made regarding AFK selling (fewer items allowed to sell, higher broker taxes, faction requirements, etc).
Offline selling:
• Assumes complete offline selling only in starting racial cities trade district.
• Utilizes the broker system.
• Limits amount of sellable items compared to active selling / trading methods.
• Highest fees and or taxes occur to the seller utilizing this method.
I think the objective should be to promote player interaction and traditional trade without allowing convenience to become an objectively "better" option. As I put forth before, tax is probably going to be the primary way of doing so. You can localize consignment and trade boards (meaning you only see items sold at that very location or nearby), or create some sort of time delay on shipping goods; as soon as you make that convenience the best way, manual trade will disappear.
Ideally I think trade should be a way for people to play the game just like a person may play solely to adventure, or to explore, or to craft. I think buying a cart and becoming a traveling saleman or building a shop and hiring a vendor npc should be a form of gameplay in Pantheon.
It sounds as there are really two requirements coming out of this thread.
Here is one option that might achieve both goals. It would allow for social interaction with the ability to buy or trade and haggle the price, and it wouldn't require you to go to a specific location or impact the social interaction between players.
Create a UI that allows the player A to move the item from their current inventory into a "sellers" window. This would then prompt the player for information such as price and/or acceptable trades. Player B now has the ability to search the database of all items for sale looking for the item they are after (or just browsing all items by class/slot etc). When they locate the item they want they click "Make Offer". This then opens a seperate chat between the players. If another player C also clicks "Make Offer" they get added to the conversation as well. You are now in a position to discuss trades, haggle the price, or even have the price increase players B and C both want the item badly enough.
Once a price / trade has been agreed upon with one of the players, the seller now clicks the trade button, and a dialog allows them to accept the player they have made a deal with by typing in their name or selecting a drop down list of users in the chat etc. This then brings up a traditional trade window and Player A places the item in the trade window and the player that made the offer agreed upon places their coin, or trade item in their trade window. The seller and the buyer now click the "Complete Trade" button andtThe trade then completes and the items from both sides of the trade appears in the inventory of the players.
Using this method you have the ability to socialize, bargin, haggle and trade items not just perform financial based transactions. Both players can be off exploring/playing the game rather than standing in an auction house, or having to spam to the zone. Additionally it doesn't steal people away from a group to perform face to face transactions, but does allow for the social aspect. There could even be a x hour delay on the items changing hands to give incentive to meet face to face (or a small coin fee for a non face to face transaction).
I think it's necessary to stop thinking about the ways transactions are handeled in games today and start thinking about alternative systems, that allow for social interaction but don't interrupt gameplay or become a timesink. I'm fine with some time sinks related to play, such as grinding out levels, camping a certain piece of equipment etc, but I would like quick transactions that still allow for social interraction.
Regards,
Zarius
Evoras said: ...Let us assume:
1. No 'Global AH' (Brad has indicated so.)
...
Aradune said:Great discussions. I respectfully remind you guys about the idea vs implementation dichotomy that is really important to keep in mind. Just as some of you pointed to games where the local economies had issues, others of you pointed to games where it's worked fine. Pointing to a failure in implementation does not necessarily invalidate an idea. That said, pointing out examples of where it's worked and where it hasn't and *why* this was true is very helpful and healthy discussion.
Being able to easily search for an item in a zone, regionally, in the continent you are in, or globally? Probably something we will experiment with.
Bottom line we are comitted to local shops/vendors/people selling wares but also very aware that we will need to experiment with it during beta and may need to implement some 'helpers'.
This post was edited by Aradune at September 15, 2016 2:46 PM MDT (here: https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/4051/the-non-global-game-economy-is-good-for-every-player/view/post_id/66852 )
So, to me, the underlined bit (I underlined it, that's not how it is in the original post) means VR may experiment with a global search, continental search, regional search, or zone search.
To some players, the ability to search globally, continentally, or regionally is an undesirable auction house feature.
To some players, the ability to search at all is an undesirable auction house feature.
To me? All I want is a global or continental search, and I don't care about the rest of the buy/sell/auction/vendor features. That's it. If that's there, everything else is just a nice to have, in my opinion.
I look forward to testing some of VR's experiemental 'helpers' on this topic.
Arkoll said:I'd be ok with a trading district in a city where you could setup in a stall and display your wares. You'd still have to be online to man the stall and call out to those passing by to let them know of the awesome loots you were selling. I liked the EQ1 bazaar setup but would prefer that there not be a way to search it and have all the sellers AFK. I think it'd also be interesting for players that thrived on selling to be able to buy an actual shop where they could lay out products to sell.
I think the problem that I have with the typical auction house is that the buyer and seller have absolutely zero interaction with each other. I have fond memories of the EC tunnel but none of any AH window. In terms of socialization and getting back to the roots of what made MMOs of the past so great, an auction house just doesn't fit the build because it cuts out so much for 'ease'. I get that what's fun to some isn't fun for others and I see that finding a balance isn't that simple. I'd be happy if an inbetween compromise could be found. But if we're talking about cutting out some aspects of the game just to make it easier and less tedious, why not make leveling easier, finding groups easier, raiding easier, all characters OP, and give everyone an 'I Win' button and call the game WoW.
I just don't get the desire to force players to play a specific way. Yes, many players love to play the role of a merchant hawking their wares, and haggling over the price. But, I would hazard to say, there are an equal number of players that would rather place their wares in a display (whether that be an AH, Bazaar, a stall they set up in the house they own or whatever compromise mechanism is in place) at a price they want to receive for those wares (or even a min/max price range set by the devs). Why must it be one way or the other? Have mechanics in place that allow both types of players to be satisfied. If someone wants to sit for hours in some market square selling goods to those passing by, and it makes them happy, more power to them. But, to others such as myself, that is an onerous and loathsome task.
As for interacting with other players, it is something I relish doing. However, I prefer those conversations to take place with those I am adventuring with. I love grouping with several hardy adventurers to take on the challenges that await us just over the hill, or around the next bend in the road. Mayhaps we are planning to conquer the lair of some foul and dangerous beast. Planning what strategy and tactics we will use, sharing the adrenaline rush when you finally win by the slightest of margins, or commiserating a sound defeat by a dreadful foe. I also love the camaraderi that comes from conversations in a camp while meditating, or waiting on the next pull, or even the satisfaction of assisting a novice player to get his bearings in the game world. These are the interactions that I, and many others, enjoy and seek out at every opportunity, not sitting in the market square selling the spoils of my adventures. It is neither better nor worse than the other way, but it is my preferred way to handle the matter. I suppose tedium is in the eye of the beholder, but to me having to spend time selling that could be spent exploring is the very definition of tedious.
No one is asking for the game to be made easier. I believe most of the people on these forums are here because they long for a challenging and dangerous world to explore and adventure in. I hope leveling takes a very long time, and finding groups shouldn't be a problem if the game is as successful as I hope it will be. No one wants overpowered characters, but we do want powerful, interesting, and balanced classes that are fun to play. And, most assuredly, no one wants an I WIN button or, God forbid, a WoW clone.
And, to be clear, there is no animus intended in my words. I simply wish to clarify my position on the subject.
Grymmlocke said:Arkoll said:I'd be ok with a trading district in a city where you could setup in a stall and display your wares. You'd still have to be online to man the stall and call out to those passing by to let them know of the awesome loots you were selling. I liked the EQ1 bazaar setup but would prefer that there not be a way to search it and have all the sellers AFK. I think it'd also be interesting for players that thrived on selling to be able to buy an actual shop where they could lay out products to sell.
I think the problem that I have with the typical auction house is that the buyer and seller have absolutely zero interaction with each other. I have fond memories of the EC tunnel but none of any AH window. In terms of socialization and getting back to the roots of what made MMOs of the past so great, an auction house just doesn't fit the build because it cuts out so much for 'ease'. I get that what's fun to some isn't fun for others and I see that finding a balance isn't that simple. I'd be happy if an inbetween compromise could be found. But if we're talking about cutting out some aspects of the game just to make it easier and less tedious, why not make leveling easier, finding groups easier, raiding easier, all characters OP, and give everyone an 'I Win' button and call the game WoW.
I just don't get the desire to force players to play a specific way. Yes, many players love to play the role of a merchant hawking their wares, and haggling over the price. But, I would hazard to say, there are an equal number of players that would rather place their wares in a display (whether that be an AH, Bazaar, a stall they set up in the house they own or whatever compromise mechanism is in place) at a price they want to receive for those wares (or even a min/max price range set by the devs). Why must it be one way or the other? Have mechanics in place that allow both types of players to be satisfied. If someone wants to sit for hours in some market square selling goods to those passing by, and it makes them happy, more power to them. But, to others such as myself, that is an onerous and loathsome task.
As for interacting with other players, it is something I relish doing. However, I prefer those conversations to take place with those I am adventuring with. I love grouping with several hardy adventurers to take on the challenges that await us just over the hill, or around the next bend in the road. Mayhaps we are planning to conquer the lair of some foul and dangerous beast. Planning what strategy and tactics we will use, sharing the adrenaline rush when you finally win by the slightest of margins, or commiserating a sound defeat by a dreadful foe. I also love the camaraderi that comes from conversations in a camp while meditating, or waiting on the next pull, or even the satisfaction of assisting a novice player to get his bearings in the game world. These are the interactions that I, and many others, enjoy and seek out at every opportunity, not sitting in the market square selling the spoils of my adventures. It is neither better nor worse than the other way, but it is my preferred way to handle the matter. I suppose tedium is in the eye of the beholder, but to me having to spend time selling that could be spent exploring is the very definition of tedious.
No one is asking for the game to be made easier. I believe most of the people on these forums are here because they long for a challenging and dangerous world to explore and adventure in. I hope leveling takes a very long time, and finding groups shouldn't be a problem if the game is as successful as I hope it will be. No one wants overpowered characters, but we do want powerful, interesting, and balanced classes that are fun to play. And, most assuredly, no one wants an I WIN button or, God forbid, a WoW clone.
And, to be clear, there is no animus intended in my words. I simply wish to clarify my position on the subject.
I doubt anyone would argue that anything in game would take the place of adventuring and exploring particularly for the social element of those experiences. Even selling wares. But the AH does not promote a social element at all. It promotes convenience.
I think you can find a system that contains both, or at worst, elements of both but convenience must have a cost associated with it or else that form will predominate the trade structure. I think most of us don't want that option for obvious reasons.
I doubt anyone would argue that anything in game would take the place of adventuring and exploring particularly for the social element of those experiences. Even selling wares. But the AH does not promote a social element at all. It promotes convenience.
I think you can find a system that contains both, or at worst, elements of both but convenience must have a cost associated with it or else that form will predominate the trade structure. I think most of us don't want that option for obvious reasons.
I am quite amenable to a compromise solution, and have no problem whatsover with there being a cost, such as a reasonable tax or fee, associated with it. Just give me the option to play the way I prefer to play. Let all players have the option to choose the method they prefer. Convenience mechanics aren't bad as long as they are done in moderation. As I said earlier, no one wants an I Win button, but tedium can harm a game just as much as too much convenience. I have no concern that there will be a lack of social interaction within the game world. VR is building a world that promotes the need for socializattion. Actually, it demands those social interactions to fully enjoy the game. A few convenience features will not change that imho.
Grymmlocke said:I just don't get the desire to force players to play a specific way. Yes, many players love to play the role of a merchant hawking their wares, and haggling over the price. But, I would hazard to say, there are an equal number of players that would rather place their wares in a display (whether that be an AH, Bazaar, a stall they set up in the house they own or whatever compromise mechanism is in place) at a price they want to receive for those wares (or even a min/max price range set by the devs). Why must it be one way or the other? Have mechanics in place that allow both types of players to be satisfied. If someone wants to sit for hours in some market square selling goods to those passing by, and it makes them happy, more power to them. But, to others such as myself, that is an onerous and loathsome task.
As for interacting with other players, it is something I relish doing. However, I prefer those conversations to take place with those I am adventuring with. I love grouping with several hardy adventurers to take on the challenges that await us just over the hill, or around the next bend in the road. Mayhaps we are planning to conquer the lair of some foul and dangerous beast. Planning what strategy and tactics we will use, sharing the adrenaline rush when you finally win by the slightest of margins, or commiserating a sound defeat by a dreadful foe. I also love the camaraderi that comes from conversations in a camp while meditating, or waiting on the next pull, or even the satisfaction of assisting a novice player to get his bearings in the game world. These are the interactions that I, and many others, enjoy and seek out at every opportunity, not sitting in the market square selling the spoils of my adventures. It is neither better nor worse than the other way, but it is my preferred way to handle the matter. I suppose tedium is in the eye of the beholder, but to me having to spend time selling that could be spent exploring is the very definition of tedious.
No one is asking for the game to be made easier. I believe most of the people on these forums are here because they long for a challenging and dangerous world to explore and adventure in. I hope leveling takes a very long time, and finding groups shouldn't be a problem if the game is as successful as I hope it will be. No one wants overpowered characters, but we do want powerful, interesting, and balanced classes that are fun to play. And, most assuredly, no one wants an I WIN button or, God forbid, a WoW clone.
And, to be clear, there is no animus intended in my words. I simply wish to clarify my position on the subject.
By implementing the AH or any other similar system for trading, players that like to sell items themselves might be forced to quit playing the way they want. Sure, they could cater to the group of players that come to them but the AH will still be a crippling competitor to their business. Someone is going to lose out on the experience they may have wanted. I like the idea of "deposit traders" that Deadshade mentioned on page 13. Merchant guilds could thrive and players who do not want to adventure may find a place in Terminus. Players with no interest in selling stuff themselves just give their wares to a trusted merchant player and go about their adventures.
If there's an AH one day I'm sure I'll be happy enough to purchase my ale there. I'd just prefer that it not exist and let emergent gameplay take it's course. I suppose that's just my forceful nature though!
OakKnower said:I doubt anyone would argue that anything in game would take the place of adventuring and exploring particularly for the social element of those experiences. Even selling wares. But the AH does not promote a social element at all. It promotes convenience.
I think you can find a system that contains both, or at worst, elements of both but convenience must have a cost associated with it or else that form will predominate the trade structure. I think most of us don't want that option for obvious reasons.
A big enough cost against the AH to both the buyer and a seller to make them just as likely to seek out an actual player might be feasible. For example, time delay on using an AH for a seller to get their money and for the buyer to get the item. Finding a balance would be the biggest challenge. When does the player find it too inconvenient to post an item for sale or buy an item from the AH so they go to a player instead. The balance would have to leave a healthy player based group of sellers while not leaving the AH barren.
As long as I can find my ale, I won't complain... too much.
@Vjek
You are quite right - I was not defining my terms adequately. Brevity shot me in the foot!
When I said:
Brad has indicated no global AH
what I really should have said was:
Brad has certainly seemed to rule out the 'global AH' as an all-encompassing package for search+buy+sell remotely, since this flies in the face of both the tenet for promoting socialising and commentary in AMA, and other places, where he rules out a 'WoW-style AH'. This does not mean individual aspects of an AH that may be beneficial would not be considered or used.
I suspect that, for any player based economy to flourish, some form of 'market search tool' would be needed. What form that would take, what distance (or scope) it would cover etc are the debatable points.
THE BIG QUESTION (that nobody has asked so far)
However .... (cat flies through air towards pigeons)
... who do we want trading?
There is an assumption from many that all players should be involved as merchants. Should they? What if only certain players took up 'The way of the Merchant' .. in the same way that only some players actibvely explore, others actively take up fishing and others still focus on their Guild and its betterment? Your average player would sell his 'loot' to local NPC vendors or the nearest 'Player merchant' who is buying that kind of stuff. Only the dedicated PC merchants would play the market, buying and selling - acting as middle-men between crafters and their customers for lower end goods.
Since when did we decide...
'everyone wants to be a merchant, so lets make it easy to do'.
... did we fall into this by accident?
Evoras said:@Vjek
You are quite right - I was not defining my terms adequately. Brevity shot me in the foot!
When I said:
Brad has indicated no global AH
what I really should have said was:
Brad has certainly seemed to rule out the 'global AH' as an all-encompassing package for search+buy+sell remotely, since this flies in the face of both the tenet for promoting socialising and commentary in AMA, and other places, where he rules out a 'WoW-style AH'. This does not mean individual aspects of an AH that may be beneficial would not be considered or used.
I suspect that, for any player based economy to flourish, some form of 'market search tool' would be needed. What form that would take, what distance (or scope) it would cover etc are the debatable points.
THE BIG QUESTION (that nobody has asked so far)
However .... (cat flies through air towards pigeons)
... who do we want trading?
There is an assumption from many that all players should be involved as merchants. Should they? What if only certain players took up 'The way of the Merchant' .. in the same way that only some players actibvely explore, others actively take up fishing and others still focus on their Guild and its betterment? Your average player would sell his 'loot' to local NPC vendors or the nearest 'Player merchant' who is buying that kind of stuff. Only the dedicated PC merchants would play the market, buying and selling - acting as middle-men between crafters and their customers for lower end goods.
Since when did we decide...
'everyone wants to be a merchant, so lets make it easy to do'.
... did we fall into this by accident?
Another excellent post, as usual, Evoras. Dedicated PC merchants is a fine idea. Just have a mechanism in place that allows me to search through merchant inventories without having to run to several hundred individual merchants to find the item(s) I am searching for. That is just a time sink imo. Let me sell items to these merchants outright, or maybe have a consignment option where the merchant gets a percentage of the sale price. There are any number of ways that this could be implemented. I simply don't want to be forced to spend a limited resource, my time, performing an activity in the game that holds no interest for me. The ability to trade is an important part of the game that some players relish spending hours doing, while others would prefer to spend their time out in the world exploring and seeking their pleasure in the myriad of other ways the game offers, yet still need to have some form of trading available to them. There are compromises aplenty that can be utilized to provide all players with their preferred style of play. MMO's are all about options. Why pigeon hole trade to only one path?
Evoras said:THE BIG QUESTION (that nobody has asked so far)
However .... (cat flies through air towards pigeons)
... who do we want trading?
There is an assumption from many that all players should be involved as merchants. Should they? What if only certain players took up 'The way of the Merchant' .. in the same way that only some players actibvely explore, others actively take up fishing and others still focus on their Guild and its betterment? Your average player would sell his 'loot' to local NPC vendors or the nearest 'Player merchant' who is buying that kind of stuff. Only the dedicated PC merchants would play the market, buying and selling - acting as middle-men between crafters and their customers for lower end goods.
Since when did we decide...
'everyone wants to be a merchant, so lets make it easy to do'.
... did we fall into this by accident?
The question of who do we want trading has been the premise of most of my posts in this thread. The fact is, not everyone wants to engage in old fashioned face to face trading. Actually, it seems most people do not want to be limited to only traditional trade. That is why I suggest that there be some form of trading or relegating of trade to trade PCs or NPCs at a cost.
By taxing convenience it allows players who want to trade as a form of gameplay to thrive.
Compromise is the key to reaching an acceptable solution. Having a reasonable tax or fee is quite acceptable. The key being reasonable. Having the costs be substantial is fine, just don't make it prohibitive. Give players the options to trade the way they want to. I think the game will be better off in the long run having more options available to suit a variety of play styles. I feel safe in saying no one here wants an easy button, but having a bit of leeway in how one chooses to play the game just makes it even more attractive imo.
@Evoras
Are you suggesting a Merchant Profession or class?
If so I could get on board with that, just as long as there is a way for me too make money in the process and off load my goods. So as a non-merchant crafter lets say. How do I do this? Im not licensed to set up shop. So what is the process of getting merchandise to a qualified vendor?
Because I think your question hits the nail on the head. Since when did we decide everyone wants to be a merchant? I dont want to take away from the folks that want to do this, but I dont want to be burdened with it if I dont want to do it. So if there was a way for me to quickly offload goods at a reduced but fair price to a merchant PC then great. This with a list board would satisfy me.
Similarly I also like the Player Consignment shop idea too. In this case there would just need to be a system set up that allows the Merchant to sell your items at a profit and not just rob you blind.
Raidan said: @Dullahan A tax will still not accomplish what you want though - it will simply raise the price for entry and established norms will be formed off the taxes. It really only penalizes the buyer.
A tax will remove currency from gameplay, which is essential to manage inflation. One can only assume bots will exist, and a tax can help reduce their effect on the economy until they are removed, while at the same time pushing players who value their profits to trade face to face. At the end of the day players who support an AH because they do not want to haggle will enjoy paying a tax for the convenience.
I can definitely confirm the consignment shops in Project Gorgon are just as Raidan says. And for clarification I was talking about the ideas on pages 5 and 6 that Raidan mentioned when I said Player consignment (not NPC consignement).
But either way Player Consignment or even a Merchant class could work I think. It would be great to get some dev feedback on this though.
As for local markets? Good luck with that. I think unless incredibly rigid (and therefore wrong in my opinion) system is set in place, over time there will eventually be One Market Place to Rule Them All. It happened in EQ and FFXI. It will happen here to. AH or no AH over time people will make an EC Tunnel or the like. There could possibly be 2, one on each continent. But essetially it will probably be at or near the most centrailized City. Unless we have Global AHs or similar, which doesnt look likely.
Dullahan said:The question of who do we want trading has been the premise of most of my posts in this thread. The fact is, not everyone wants to engage in old fashioned face to face trading. Actually, it seems most people do not want to be limited to only traditional trade. That is why I suggest that there be some form of trading or relegating of trade to trade PCs or NPCs at a cost.
By taxing convenience it allows players who want to trade as a form of gameplay to thrive.
First, awesome thread, very impressive ideas, passionate responses -- I agree with some, and not with others, but I think that's very healthy. In fact, I think this has been one of the better long threads we've had.
Second I want to say that this isn't going to be ultimately settled until Beta. I hope that doesn't sound like a cop out, but truly there are many aspects of Pantheon that we require alpha and beta before we set into stone. There are many components of MMOs that you simply cannot solve theorycrafting or by comparing the idea to an implementation in another game -- some things need hundreds if not thousands of people banging on, using, etc. before you can tune it such that the majority of your audience likes it.
The most important goals related to this entire discussion are: 1. we want a thriving player driven economy 2. we want people not only compelled but rewarded for traveling and exploring the world 3. we want to put desirable items in hard to reach places and reward those merchant types for taking the risk of not just obtaining that remote item, but bringing it to more civilized and populous areas and, assuming the demand is there, selling it for a profit. I've always been intrigued by that period where the Silk Road was used and something perhaps of little worth in China when brought all the way back to Europe was quite pricey.
1. Is certainly doable
2. Definitely going to reward travel and exploration in several ways
3. This is easier said than done, and no I'm not trying to make a middle-ages silk road economic simulator. But I do think distance and risk should matter. And, therefore, people taking the time to travel and to risk more should be rewarded accordingly.
So those are the basic goals.
Now comes the stuff that like I said earlier, we're not going to set in stone until alpha or even early beta:
1. I don't think we'll require the player to sit around a popular trading spot spamming WTS: blahblah for hours. I don't think anyone really wants that, right?
2. So, if we aren't going to force people to do that then *some* mechanism/feature must be present... is it a full auction house? Is it just being able to set up an NPC and put your items on it, set your prices, and then leave him there while you continue to play the game? Is it somewhere in-between or something else? I honestly don't know yet. I just have a pretty strong feeling that some sort of 'helper' is going to be necessary.
3. The next big issue seems to be 'how do I find that special item I am looking for?' Again, we can go to one extreme and I think most people agree you shouldn't have to spend hours talking to every player or their merchant NPC, one by one, trying to find that item... especially if after all that effort that item isn't even currently for sale in the zone or region you're in.
4. So then comes the 'how easy to we make it to find that item'? and 'If I can search for an item, will it be local or global or something in-between?' Great questions. Again, not setting anything in stone, but my guess is that we will end up having a way to check if a region or zone has a merchant NPC, or a player, or an AH (if we even have them) has an item you are looking for currently for sale. Global searches but regional buying? Hrm... that's not sitting with me right, but will continue to think on it.
Then there's mailing people items.... perhaps... could be a good money sink.
Anyway those are my thoughts right now -- if I missed addressing something critical please let me know.
I do think many in our audience enjoy face-to-face trading and that many don't. We therefore need to accommodate both. My gut says right now that you can set up your own NPC merchant, give it the items you want to sell, set prices, and then leave him. Then it's not face-to-face, its player interacting with NPC, and I don't think anyone has issues there, yes? No?
Bottom line: we are listening, we understand there are people with conflicting desires but we are also confident that together (you guys and us devs) we can make a regional economy not only work and make for a fun part of the game, but also accommodate both sides of this current debate (or perhaps there's more than just two sides here -- it's been quite the thread).
In any case, by all means, continue the discussion if you have more to say.
Raidan said: @Dullahan A tax will still not accomplish what you want though - it will simply raise the price for entry and established norms will be formed off the taxes. It really only penalizes the buyer. I know we've had this discussion before somewhere in this thread. A 1 pp item with a 25% tax will now just be 1 pp 25 gold. If an AH is an option, people will default to it, taxes or not. Check out Project Gorgon's consignment shops, basically psuedo AH's. People all use them regardless of the consignment cut due to convenience. If you want to have trader gameplay, full automation can never be an option. Amsai and I had some discussion on page 5 and 6 of this thread of how you could introduce convenience and new features without ever offering full automation. Players will always take the path of least resistance.
That isn't the way it works in real life, and it isn't the way it will work in game. The idea that everyone will simply get used to taxes and thereby no one will utilize manual trading despite the considerable profit it offers just isn't supported by reality. People are driven by profit, and will find ways to avoid paying more if possible. The reason it didn't work in other games was mainly because taxes were too small and manual trade was simply too hard (due to low population or low value/high availability of items).
You are right that less valuable items will likely be sold the easiest way possible, but to suggest that people would be willing to lose 2500pp on a 5000pp item is sort of silly and will not happen. Furthermore, losing massive amounts of profit to tax in an auction is not the "path of least resistance" to a lot of people. Spending a little extra time selling your wares personally for more money would be less resistance, but the option is there for both schools of thought.
The reason you cannot see this happening is because you aren't a trader. You've said you're an adventurer above all else, so it seems you aren't able to see the opportunity tax will provide for those interested in manual trade and wealth accumulation as a primary form of gameplay.
I'm not against removing full automation, but I definitely lean more towards those options than requiring players to ONLY manually trade which will come as a rude awakening to the majority of even Pantheons target audience in 2018.
Just to be clear, I would rather not see a global auction house. I would like to see traditional trade flourish, and a sort of advertisement board that can be found in all cities and outposts which display wares for sale perhaps in a region or continent.
My preference beyond manual trading would be first, setting yourself up as a vendor when not playing (offline or online) with a 10% fee, a player vendor which cost money to hire the npc and perhaps renting a stall as well as a percentage of profits (probably 15%), then a consignment which would be a little higher taking maybe 25%. Beyond that if they were to go to any regional auction the taxes, as I said before, should be heavy.
Not only are these taxes realistic but also stimulate player trade while serving as a money sink and combat inflation.
@Aradune
Wow talk about a fast response to a request for dev feedback lol. Nice. Though Im sure you were probably already writing it up by the time I requested it. Good stuff though.
Stuff not set in stone:
1. Glad to hear it. And I at least know I dont, but people that want to really play Merchant might.
2. I think there should be some type of system, but for the sake of all the PC merchants out there I dont think it has to be an AH.
3. All Id want is a simple list board.
4. Local or Regional would be fine, it doesnt have to be Global
So NPC servants for running your "shop"? I wouldnt have an issue with it, but from this long discussion it looks that some would. It seems while some would be okay with small conveniences like a list board, they wouldnt want full automation. They would still want required player to player interaction. Though I guess that would depend on how its set up? Licenses? Levels? Taxes? Limitations? Those eliminated if its face to face?
Do you want or think it matters or can even stop market centralization? Ive seent a few ideas floated about it, but nothing seems like a resonable solution to me at least. I just think its almost inevitable that the market will choose a "EC Tunnel". So while there wouldnt be a Global market, there would eventually be one main market place.
Amsai said:@Aradune
Wow talk about a fast response to a request for dev feedback lol. Nice. Though Im sure you were probably already writing it up by the time I requested it. Good stuff though.
Stuff not set in stone:
1. Glad to hear it. And I at least know I dont, but people that want to really play Merchant might.
2. I think there should be some type of system, but for the sake of all the PC merchants out there I dont think it has to be an AH.
3. All Id want is a simple list board.
4. Local or Regional would be fine, it doesnt have to be Global
So NPC servants for running your "shop"? I wouldnt have an issue with it, but from this long discussion it looks that some would. It seems while some would be okay with small conveniences like a list board, they wouldnt want full automation. They would still want required player to player interaction. Though I guess that would depend on how its set up? Licenses? Levels? Taxes? Limitations? Those eliminated if its face to face?
Do you want or think it matters or can even stop market centralization? Ive seent a few ideas floated about it, but nothing seems like a resonable solution to me at least. I just think its almost inevitable that the market will choose a "EC Tunnel". So while there wouldnt be a Global market, there would eventually be one main market place.
I think the having your own merchant NPC that would sell your wares is a good compromise fitting in-between one extreme (everything is face to face, player to player) and the other extreme, a full on auction house. I will say that I'm leaning towards this being what we'll do. Of course, this doesn't stop player to player trades/sales.
And then some kind of list board, as you mentioned.
As for the EC Tunnel part of things, while I do think people will find areas once they learn the world, the routes, efficient ways to get from point a to point b, etc. and that there will be places that make sense to place your merchant minion NPC there, I don't necessarily agree that we'll get a repeat of EQ, e.g there will be only one of these. The way the world is being crafted, where the races are, the different continents, etc. I'm hoping we would see multiple spots.
If people are concerned that because of the merchants minions that no one will do player to player trades, 1. I don't necessarily agree but 2. if that turned out to be the case in alpha and beta, we could implement a tax or similar system to encourage face to face trades.
Anyway, that's where I pretty much sit at the moment.